Civil Society Media has published its third-ever podcast episode. It is the second of two Charity Awards special interviews with last year’s overall winners for excellence, Freedom from Torture.
In the episode, Freedom from Torture’s digital campaigns manager Agustina Oliveri gives the inside track on the charity’s award-winning Stop the Flights campaign and shares her memories of her charity receiving the overall award for excellence at last year's Charity Awards.
You can listen to the interview here:
An AI-generated transcript is available to read below:
Transcript
00:00
Rob Preston: Hello and welcome to the third-ever podcast episode from Civil Society Media. Today’s show is the second of two Charity Awards special interviews with last year’s winner of the overall award for excellence, Freedom from Torture.
If you missed it, our first episode featuring the charity’s director of survivor empowerment, Kolbassia Haoussou, is still available. Today’s episode is with digital campaigns manager Agustina Oliveri, who led Freedom From Torture’s Charity Award winning Stop the Flights campaign.
Before we crack on, please remember that you have until 29 February to enter your charity for the Charity Awards 2024, which is set to take place in London this summer. Delivered with our overall awards partner, CCLA Investment Management, the Charity Awards provides charities of all shapes and sizes with a window to showcase their efforts and the impact they have made. To enter this year’s Charity Awards, go to charityawards.co.uk
Agustina Oliveri has held communications and advocacy roles in a variety of locations including her native Argentina, the Greek island of Samos, and the Netherlands. In this interview, we discuss how Agustina’s interesting career has shaped her work at Freedom from Torture and she gives the inside track on the charity’s award-winning Stop the Flights campaign. I hope you enjoy this one and I’ll speak to you again at the end.
01:19
Rob Preston: Agustina, it's very nice to meet you. Thank you very much for taking the time to speak to us for this podcast. So, we're going to talk about Freedom from Torture’s win at the Charity Awards 2023 for its Stop the Flights campaign. You're the digital campaigns manager at Freedom from Torture. So as someone who led the Stop the Flights campaign, how did it feel to be recognised last year at the Charity Awards?
01:45
Agustina Oliveri: I think it was a bit crazy, because we walked in and there was this massive room with like loads and loads of people. And we walked in me like: “Oh, there's no way we're going to win.” And I remember a charity before, so a couple nominees before us, a refugee charity had won. So we're like: “Okay, there's no way we're going to win.” And then we won, which was already exciting in itself. And we didn't even know there was an overall charity awards winner category, we didn't know. And we were with Sepideh, one of my colleagues and Sepi was like: “What if we win?” I was like: “Sepi, no way, we didn't even know this existed. There's no way that this is going to happen.” And then they call our name. And I think somebody from our table was really kind to record us because we were all like, what? Kinda like halfway through eating our dessert. I think it's really nice to be recognised for your work. But I think for us, it wasn't that much about the award, which is very nice that we have displayed. But it's also about the recognition of how important refugee rights are in the country right now. I think somehow we got from lots of people that we spoke to that night was the recognition not only for our work but for the fight that is happening right now in the UK to make sure that the UK remains a compassionate place and remains a place you know, of welcome. And I think it's really easy to think I think all of us has charities to think that you know, we're working on this and working on asylum and it was really nice to kind of like feel welcomed and hugged by the charity community and recognised in itself. And I think most importantly, and again with the state of the world right now, it's really easy to forget that people power actually does work, that us coming together and 100s of 1000s of people coming together works and that you know people power works which is something we say all the time but I think we always need a reminder of. I think the award is a testimony that you know people power does work when we get together we are a force to be reckoned with and I think I'll take that reminder over any kind of award. I think that's the real award at least for me.
04:09
Rob Preston: Despite it being a surprise actually winning it, I remember being in the room when Freedom from Torture’s name was read out, there was a big cheer, I think it was super popular, and the campaign I guess is the thing that was popular. Yeah, people were really passionate about that. Did you have lots of people coming up to you as well like from other charities during the evening to kind of share their appreciation?
04:32
Agustina Oliveri: We did and you actually reminded me of that because that was my favourite part of the kind of like chill of it because I remember the guy being like: “Please don't clap after every nominee because we're gonna be here forever.” We're like: “Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, true.” And then when that happened, it was that feeling of like, we are all in this together, like we are all fighting for the same thing and it's recognised. And yeah, I just remember feeling super emotional about that. Because again, it's super easy to get drowned by the like, the day in day out issues, even with, you know, with any kind of work but with charities kind of like get drowned, but kind of like, failing again and again lots of times and it's quite lonely and just that cheer and just to be like: “Oh, everybody's rooting not in order to win for us but for the same thing.” That was amazing. Like that was yeah, that was incredible.
05:36
Rob Preston: Brilliant. Um, yeah, we'll talk a bit more about the campaign and how it came about a bit later. But first, let's talk a little bit about your background. So you grew up in Buenos Aires, and you worked for the Argentine government communications Department for a while. You then moved to Europe, and were involved in grassroots refugee activism in the Greek island of Samos. You worked in the Netherlands for a bit as well, against workplace harassment, you advocated for women in the UK justice system, and you've worked on human rights as a board member of London's Latin American House. So, it's a really varied and interesting career. Did you always want to kind of work in different countries, working on these sorts of causes, and how have those experiences, how have they all fed into what you do now for Freedom from Torture?
06:34
Agustina Oliveri: I always wanted to work in human rights from I think a very young age, I think, something that got taught to me from a very early age, living in a third world country – I was born and bred in Argentina, I only moved away when I was 23. And living in a country that has such inequality and such disparity is that when you get a bit of privilege, you put it into work. And you put that privilege to work for other people. And that was something that kind of like got instilled with me from really young. And I think something that I've seen and felt kind of like along my career is I've always had the same nagging feeling be it in the Netherlands or Samos, it always felt like working on human rights, that we were putting band aids on things, that we were trying to stop a major bleed by putting a couple of band aids on it or bursting pipe by Scotch taping it.
I worked on Samos for about a year and it's an island that the camp was built for 648 people and the time of me being there had over 8,000. So, what can you do when faced with those conditions? I lead our advocacy and, and comms, but you know, we put the comms out but people are still suffering. We give somebody a tent but you know, the underlying causes and trauma of what they've been through in their home countries and in the travel and the retraumatisation of living in what is essentially an open air prison, you always feel like you're putting band aids on things. And it's really interesting, because coming to work at Freedom from Torture has felt differently, because, you know, we do the comms we do the advocacy, we do the parliamentary work and the stunts and the flying to Majorca. But you turn around and you've got an amazing group of professionals giving out you know, first class clinical services, so we're not only talking about what should be done, and can be done, we're doing it or at least we're trying to do it to the best of our ability. So it feels like instead of kind of like dressing the wound, and you know, showcasing the wound or talking about the wound, which is why I feel we ended up doing lots of the times. At Freedom from Torture, we end up healing the wound while we talk about it. And it's been such an honour being able to kind of like be part of that well oiled machine that attempts to do that. And yeah, it's been such a privilege because it's not only doing the advocacy, but it's doing the advocacy with and for survivors, which I think is extremely needed. But also it doesn't feel like putting a bandaid because I know that within the organisation or within my team again, there's like, I don't know if I'm right in saying hundreds, but like hundreds of professionals you know, you doing medical legal reports every day and doing amazing clinical work with survivors of torture in the UK. So I think if there's some kind of like an outlook that my kind of like previous experiences have given me it's such a sense of kind of like privilege to be able to witness kind of like the two things working at the same time.
10:21
Rob Preston: So, let's talk a bit more about the Stop the Flights campaign. So, the campaign for people who don't know, involved you convinced airlines, commercial airlines, not to fly asylum seekers to Rwanda, I think was four airlines in the end. So yeah, and amazing achievement. And they were these airlines, were going to fly people on behalf of the UK government, its policy. How did you come about as a charity, choosing that issue and forming the strategy that ended up being recognised?
11:00
Agustina Oliveri: Yeah. I think kinda like how we decided to kind of like campaign around it. I think it's really important to like mention the context, which was like we were coming straight out of a plethora of like failures with the nationality and borders bill in 2022. And kind of like the whole refugee sector rallying to, you know, get amendments in, even scratch the surface of kind of like, what was what is a quite inhumane act now. And we had all failed massively, the, our team, but you know, the rest of the whole sector was burnt out, disillusioned, our supporters were disillusioned, everybody was, you know, quite upset that this had passed without any scratch.
And then, on the back of that, we got the announcement that this government was kind of creating this Rwanda scheme, which just seemed crazy. So the first thing that we had to think about was the context that we were in and campaigning around, this was a no brainer, not only from a legal perspective, but also from a humane and campaigns perspective, it was a no brainer in the sense that this poses a risk to, you know, every refugee coming into this country seeking sanctuary.
So we knew we had to do something, but we knew we had to take a different approach. So we knew, for example, one of the first things we thought about was, you know, the government has no incentive to change, they don't want to change, they actually think they're doing quite well. So you know, they didn't want to change what they were doing. And we knew that from, you know, the losses that we were just coming from. And we knew that the Rwanda government wasn't even the goal, because the UK government, as they've tried to do repeatedly could try to do this scheme with lots of different other countries. So it wasn’t about stopping Rwanda, it was about stopping, you know, the UK government.
So we started thinking, you know, who could have incentives to change, who could actually have you know, that incentive. And we were like, Rwanda’s quite far, you need to fly them there, wouldn’t you? And we knew from research, we were really lucky to work with amazing kind of like grassroots NGOs that do this kind of research, that we knew from research that they use certain airlines all the time, and we came up with kind of like our main pool of six airlines. And, and we got to work on that. But I think something that I always like to say, is that, you know, we did Stop the Flights campaign but we were only able to do that, because the first flight was stopped. And we didn't stop the first flight. You know, we were just getting started when the first flight happened, when Privilege Style was on the tarmac ready to leave. The only reason we Stop the Flights took off is because that stopped. And that flight was stopped by grassroots NGOs, across, you know, the country, people that went and put their lives in danger and, you know, glued themselves to the tarmac to stop vans. It was stopped by lawyers working tirelessly to, you know, put those injunctions into the European Court of Human Rights to get that, you know, interim measure put in.
So I always like before like talking about our strategy, and, you know, talking about the really cool things that we've done to talk about the people that made it possible. And kind of like the organisations that we worked with, and organisations that work to make this possible. And on that, for our strategy, we were again, lucky. This was new for us at Freedom from Torture, I had never done corporate campaigning. The refugee sector hadn't done much, you know, corporate campaigning, and we were lucky to work with amazing freelancers, like, you know, India Thorogood and Alex Green, who were part of our team and they, you know, worked alongside All of us, and I think part of the strategy was this was, how do we take this movement that seems to have so many, you know, strands and parts? And how do we make it into a campaign that A, reflects our values, B, is survivor lead and is actually led by, you know, the people that are going to be affected by this, who are the people that are going to be the most insightful to do this. And C, if successful, because we knew that, you know, any kind of strategy that we did as creative and innovative and cool, we knew that it didn't only have to pierce the refugee sector bubble, it had to pierce the UK bubble. And then it had to reach all the way to Spain, and pierce their bubble in Majorca, you know, because funnily enough, most of them seem to have headquarters in Majorca. There's one of them in Lisbon, but the rest of them seem to blank, you know, be in Majorca. So our strategy, which we created in kind of like steps and moments, was based on kind of like this constant feeling that we needed to reach a target that we'd never reached before. And we needed to kind of like, send that message with a piercing arrow all the way to Spain. Because you know, it's all nice if you know lots of people in the UK are talking about it, lots of people in the UK are sending them emails, but if people in Spain aren't feeling the difference, or if they're not seeing that it affects their actual customers, they're not gonna care.
And that's why through what, you know, I started calling kind of like a surround approach system, that's how we kind of like decided to work in sprints because we realised you know, that if we do one action here, and then leave them alone for a couple of weeks, it just wouldn't have much of a difference. So our strategy then became, okay, how do we target them with lots of different tactics at the same time, so getting, you know, normal regular people to send them emails or call them? So like, what do we call supporter actions? How do we target them digitally through, you know, social media, LinkedIn, you know, Instagram through their platforms? How do we target not only them, but the people they are going to care about? So how do we target their targets, so you know, their VIP customers, for these airlines which are mostly kind of like charter flights, they depend on their customers, we weren't targeting British Airways that, you know, flies, 100s of 1,000s of flights a year. So you know, targeting their costumers and targeting their customers’ customers, reasons why we went, for example, to the Real Madrid and Barcelona football match, because we were like: “Okay, your clubs, specifically, are really proud of being, you know, pro refugee, Real Madrid has a couple of refugee players, Barcelona was an ambassador for UNHCR. So we're like, how do you feel about your club doing this? And everybody was like: “Whoa, this is horrifying.” So we were like, amazing, tell your CEOs, tell the airline and then create that kind of like, a chain of reactions that ultimately got to them and got them to, you know, rule themselves out, which was great. And they sent us a message being like, please, please stop, which was, you know, very funny.
18:29
Rob Preston: And that was yourself. We spoke before the podcast, you went out there yourself. And you were there in Spain to be interviewed?
18:37
Agustina Oliveri: I went to Spain the second time that we went with some of my colleagues, again, one of my colleagues had the great idea of giving them the worst airline of the year award, which ended up being a 3d printed golden poo with a plane fly into it. And we'd called them a week in advance and were like, we really want to give you an award, and they were really excited. We turned up to their headquarters with like a band, an all-immigrant band, which I thought was really cool, streamers, signs, the awards, they weren't very happy with us. And thankfully, we were able to speak to lots of press in Spain because I was born speaking Spanish as my first language. And then the same thing in the Real Madrid Barcelona match. We got lucky that that was, you know, on a Saturday, so we flew to Madrid as well to be there. And were able to speak, you know, to lots of the fans outside of the stadium and, you know, let them know what was happening and spread a kind of like the awareness what was happening and we also own kind of, like that line managed to send I think it was over 25,000 emails to the presidents of Real Madrid and Barcelona to you know, ask them to ask, you know, their airline of choice to not do this.
So, it was I think that's what was successful about the campaign strategy. It was one, the amount of people, B, that it was really informed and led by survivors. Because there's a difference. People don't want to hear from me. People don't want to hear from me, I don't have anything much interesting to say, there's a difference, if, you know, we had, again, my colleagues Sepi and Kolbassia who went and stopped one of the talks during the aviation conference in Amsterdam, one of the biggest aviation conferences in the world to be like, you know, this can't happen, this can’t happen to people like us, this can’t happen to anybody. And we got really good replies from the person that was leading the talk that got cancelled, actually tweeted at us being like, it was great to get my talk cancelled by you guys, because it was such, you know, yeah, it was an honour to be there. So like, I think it being led by survivors, and that highlighting the human impact that these schemes and plans have I think was really, really important. And just, as I said before, now, I keep saying, and I'm gonna have to get it tattooed on my face, but that people power does work, that having 100s of 1000s of people with the same goal, a bit of effort or a bit of time of your day to do something can make a change.
21:28
Rob Preston: I think that's probably part of what captured people's imagination, perhaps the judges of the awards, was how it was involving survivors of torture in the kind of design and the delivery of the whole campaign. So was that a key element, then for you, for the whole thing?
21:43
Agustina Oliveri: For sure. I think that was one of the main elements for us. I don't think we'd do any campaign without that. It would feel a bit like a table missing a leg. How can we talk about schemes like this and how can we talk about whatever kind of like policy or, you know, inhuman scheme that the government might roll out, without actually talking to the people that either A have first-hand experience of it or B are affected by it first? There's no way that we can understand the human impact of one of those things if we haven't lived through it? So I think being informed by the people that actually have the knowledge and the experience is kind of like forefront in our work and what we do.
22:34
Rob Preston: Absolutely. Well, what I thought was really interesting is how the campaign kind of used humour as well. So you mentioned the worst airline of the year. And you also handed out I think one way tickets to Rwanda at the Conservative Party Conference. Considering it's a heavy topic really like, what was the thinking behind that about using humour, to capture people's imagination, I suppose?
22:56
Agustina Oliveri: Yeah. One is just catching kind of like people’s eye, but the second one is, the world's a really depressing place. Like, the world’s a sad place at the moment, and you know back then as well, and I don't think we need to take ourselves too seriously. Like, we believe that you need to keep you know, people hopeful. Yeah, and people laughing. And I do believe that humour is one of the most powerful, you know, forces that we've got.
So, we always had to be very careful, because you know, you don't want to be putting out something humorous, when there's grave things happening. So we had to be very strategic when we rolled out our humour, not only within the campaign itself, but within the kind of like, context of the world we're living in. Yeah, so that humour needed to be kind of like really well targeted and well placed, because you don't want to be seen, as you know, out of context or place, but I think it was that humour that also made it more relatable. It's really easy to hear about refugee rights and hear about, you know, Rwanda scheme and be like, “Oh, bit too much.” Or like: “Oh, that sounds really, you know, hard. I don't understand. I don't know what the ECHR is, I don't know what Rwanda like, sounds a lot for me.” But if I come up to you, and I make a joke about an airline, or I tell you, look, this airline is being a bit mean and a bit dodgy so we're giving them the worst airline of the year award, you're like: “Oh, I get that. Yeah, I understand that.” Whereas if I was like, you know, these airlines should be held accountable for… I lose you along the way. So, it's also about how do we keep people engaged and how do we make our content accessible? I think it's one of the most important things to focus on.
24:57
Rob Preston: Yeah, you did that really effectively. And with that, we're a year and a bit perhaps down the line now, the government hasn't abandoned its Rwanda policy. What's the charity doing? Or is the charity plotting anything else to kind of combat what's happening?
25:15
Agustina Oliveri: It’s really funny. Because if you'd asked us in December, after kind of like that quite succinct, really good, supreme court judgment, if we'd be talking about Rwanda in January, I would have been like: “Nah, we're good.” Like, this was great. We get to celebrate again for once, and we're not, we’re here, we’re back.
25:35
Rob Preston: They keep persisting with a different way of trying to make it happen.
25:40
Agustina Oliveri: It feels like a bit of a flashback, because now they're persisting with a bill. So it's one of those where we know, we can't call an airline right now. They're also apparently having issues finding airlines, according to some newspapers, which is quite fun to read. But, you know, we're back to a bill. So we're back to, you know, MPs and lords in parliament. So right now, what we're doing is focusing on the bill, that's kind of like going through. And I think our main focus right now is kind of I think I've said this before, but on, on the human impact that these bills have, I think, again, talking about bills is boring. People find bills boring, people find parliament bored. People don't want to write a letter to their MP, their MPs don't want to receive them, their MPs don't really care. Do you know, I mean, we all know about. So I think for us this time around with this new bill that's going back to parliament next week, it's more about how do we share the human impact of this bill? How do we make people aware or how do we make people understand of the real impact that these bills have not only for the people that might be, you know, flown away to Rwanda, but for the people that remain, for the families that are destroyed, or even the people that live in constant fear of being kind of like, taken away. So how do you, it's how do you explain to people that it's not only about the trauma of being sent away, but the retraumatisation of not being safe, of not being, you know, the people that have come to seek sanctuary here but can't put their feet up, can’t take a breath. You know, it's, I think the way that it seems is how do you explain to people that there's, you know, 100s, and even like, 1,000s of people that have, you know, taken a breath in and can't breathe it out, because they don't know what's going to happen to them, their families or friends. So I think right now, what we're going to focus on is, is showing this human impact through our survivor apartment team, through the voices of torture survivors and refugees that you know, know firsthand this impact. And, you know, we always have a Stop the Flights card up our sleeve, you know. We're always ready. We're not gonna let it go. It's not about having stopped one flight, it's not about having stopped a couple of airlines. We're not gonna let it go. We're here. Yeah, no, no, we're here. Like, we're not gonna let it go. Yeah, basically, if the government is listening.
28:21
Rob Preston: I spoke to Kolbassia about this, despite what the government's trying to do, and perhaps the messages it's putting out about how welcoming as a country we are, do you have a different view from the British public? Do you think the British public is welcoming in contrast to the government?
28:41
Agustina Oliveri: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I. And there's, you know, there’s study some numbers about this but, we know that the British public is compassionate and kind. We know that most of the British public wants the UK to remain a welcoming place. And we know that most of the UK public is against these kinds of like, inhumane laws. But it's easy to forget about that. Because again, it's easy to forget that, you know, there's many, many more of us that believe in compassion. Because our voices are sometimes not loud enough, or we get complacent, or we're like, you know, oh, everybody's done with compassion, you know, somebody else will do it. Yeah. And unfortunately, we were against a side that is very loud, and we're against a group of people that are very loud in their hate. And there's less of them than us. I'm 100% sure of that. Like, I'm 100% sure that there's more of us on our site than this, but it's easy to forget. But for sure. I'm I am certain that this is not what the UK public wants. And I'm certain that yeah, the UK public stands with compassion and kindness and welcoming and you know, chooses love and chooses compassion.
30:15
Rob Preston: Yeah, it's valuable to remember that. Can you tell me anything about any of the other campaigns that you're working on at the moment at Freedom from Torture?
30:25
Agustina Oliveri: For sure. It's election year, allegedly. So, it's quite a difficult year to pinpoint what we're doing. And funnily enough, last year, I promised my team a quiet January, where we would do lots of planning. And then around literally, this day last year, we were doing a road trip with Joan, a Holocaust survivor to crash Suella Braverman’s constituency meeting, so that quiet January went out the window. So this January, we're actually doing a bit more thinking. And I think the reason why we want to do that is it's really difficult to be proactive in this sector. We're always kind of like at the mercy of reacting to whatever inhumane policies or schemes the government wants to bring out and we've had a lot of that in the last two years. So, I think we're taking a minute to think about what we proactively want to do as well as reactive. Because again, we wouldn't have thought that we'd be talking about Rwanda schemes a month ago, two months ago, and here we are. So I think we want to make sure that we are being proactive, as well as reactive.
31:44
Rob Preston: Does that mean kind of trying to imagine how life might be better for refugees in this country, rather than just trying to stop it from getting worse?
31:54
Agustina Oliveri: Basically, I think, for example, lots of times with the narrative that we use, and the words that we use, we ended up running away from phrases and words, because the government has decided to use them, because the government has decided to kind of like demonise them. And we always end up kind of like running a step behind reacting to things. And we to stop, we want to kind of like take the reins of that narrative, and take the reigns of you know, we don't only have to say, you know, the UK can be a welcoming place in response to the UK government saying that it's not, we want to say because we're certain of it, and we want to show people how, so that's one of our plans this year.
32:42
Rob Preston: You mentioned the election. How do you how free Do you feel it's a charity to campaign and to do the things you want to do, considering there are rules around it? And you know, there's regulation from the Charity Commission and other organisations, how do you feel doing that?
33:00
Agustina Oliveri: It's a fine line. Obviously, you know, we need to campaign within our charitable objectives and within the remit of our organisation. And especially during an election year, that kind of is twofold, because it's not only the Charity Commission, it's also the election guidelines. But I think, because I think everybody's really scared, and everybody's really worried right now about it. But I think, and I'm not saying that we shouldn't be, but what I'm saying is, I think we should be truthful in what we do. I think if we're being truthful to our aims, and our values and our objectives, then we're doing what we need to do. I feel like the way that I view our campaigning is we campaign for the benefit. And we campaign that we campaign with torture survivors for their benefit, so we compete with them and for them and it's not my role through that to kind of like toe, a political you know, line. We've had ruffled feathers before we have had the Home Office ask us to put you know, to put Joan’s video down when we had done nothing wrong. So, whilst I think of us as a charity, we have the responsibility to be true to our charitable objectives and to be true to our aims and not you know, stray from those. I think we also have a necessity in a way to be truthful to our values, truthful to our objectives, and truthful to what we do. And if that ruffles a few feathers then so be it.
34:55
Rob Preston: Thank you so much for speaking to us, Agustina. The last thing I'd like to ask you is, as this podcast will go out ahead of people entering the Charity Awards for this year, do you have any advice at all for any charities out there who might be considering entering their charity for this year's Charity Awards?
35:15
Agustina Oliveri: Exciting. I'd say, go for it. And I'd say, yeah, go for it full-heartedly. I think it's, it's really nice to feel that you know, your campaign has been you know, called on or it's really nice to feel kind of like the warmth of the crowd that goes to these events. But I think, again, we need to show more people that people power works, we need to keep showing our successes. It's really, I think, common, especially in the charity sector, to focus on where we've fallen or focus on, you know, the losses. So the constant kind of like external factors that keep bringing us down. And I think we’re due a celebration every once in a while. So please show us that people power works. And, you know, I'm excited to see who applies this year.
36:13
Rob Preston: Excellent. Thank you so much, Agustina, it's been lovely to meet you. Thank you for your time.
36:17
Agustina Oliveri: Thank you. It's been lovely.
36:20
Rob Preston: Thank you for listening to our second Charity Awards special podcast episode and thank you to Agustina for being such a great guest. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe and we may plan to do more in the coming weeks. Until then, I hope you stay safe and well and thanks again for listening.
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